98 | Empathetic Communication

Annie: Hey there Leah.

Leah: Hey Annie. How are you?

Annie: I'm good. How are you today?

Leah: I am doing good. Just enjoying springtime weather before it just gets blistering hot, which is coming quickly.

Annie: I was just seeing in my photo memories that this episode is coming out on May 13th and it's right around the anniversary of the first time you and I met in person.

Leah: Oh my gosh, yes.

Annie: Which was back in like 2018 or 20 I think so at the USLCA conference.

Leah: I know, I know. And I remember just hearing about this person who's trying to get everybody to go digital and like, who is she? Who's that girl? And then come to find out the history was made in the making right. Then I know we would find each other and, and here we are. So many, and here we are seven years later. It's so amazing.

Annie: Definitely wild ride. Well today we thought we would talk about just kind of an ongoing thing that I feel like we always need to, I always need to work on, or I always need to keep it top of mind and that's how to be empathetic in the way that we communicate with our clients. And knowing how much my ability to communicate empathetically is affected by my mood and my energy level. Did I have breakfast or did I have a giant coffee? Whenever I have a giant coffee, I'm very empathetic.

Leah: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not the opposite. Like, hurry up, let's go. We gotta give you more things. I feel like it makes me so jittery that I would be like, go, go, go do all the things.

Annie: I talk really fast and I get very dialed in on like, yeah, like, like I'm here for you.

Leah: Like the whole world falls away. Yes. Oh, I feel like one thing. With our learning environments it is like, yes, we get a little bit of communication, but I always reflect back to like in, we both started in Lucha league and you know, we had to go through the communications and, and everything. I feel like so much of was, was like, how. Impactful your languages and how to word things and how to like do the active listening and reflecting back and it, I just felt like it was such a big part of it. And then it's exciting to learn all the clinical stuff, I think. 'cause it's like, or at least for me, I'm like, I'm a biologist at heart. I'm like, I wanna learn the science stuff and I really have to kind of seek out, I feel like the communications piece isn't so in front of our face. It's like the shiny new object is like, learn more about this, you know, low milk supply or tongue tie or, but it's not like, learn more about how to talk to your clients in ways that won't impact their negative for life. Because I feel like that's what I hear so often is like clients saying. This nurse came in and told me my baby was never gonna nurse, and like it ruined everything for me, you know? And I'm like, God, I just don't ever wanna be that person that ruins everything that they're reflecting back on me and being like that Leah, she ruined everything for me. That weighs heavy on my heart. But I feel like you, you have to put. As much energy into training your communication skills as you are learning all the physiological reasons people have low milk supply, but we don't get, I feel like, I don't know, maybe you're, you're seeing something different. 'cause I know you're in the thick of training, you know, options and things too, but I feel like it's not as flashy, shiny thing as communication.

Annie: Do you feel that way too? Oh yeah. I totally feel that way. It's like not the, it's like the most important thing, but also kind of the hardest to teach or get training about. And I think it's like what you said is so how I've been thinking about it lately with making sure that what I say really lands for these people in a way that is helpful. And it's funny, like this topic came up because I've been watching this, there's a TV show on HBO called the rehearsal. It just started season two and basically the premise is this, it's supposed to be a comedy show, but his premise is that you can practice doing things so that you can have the outcomes that you want, or by practicing things you can learn what's actually happening and how to do them. It's a very strange show and he is got a very unique perspective on the world. But this current season is about trying to understand plane crashes and what's happening in the cockpit during plane crashes. And he is like, if we can recreate these plane crashes, have actors reading the scripts and study them, maybe we can figure out what's going on and to prevent this plane crash. So in the second episode, it's not really, hopefully not a spoiler for people that have whatever. I, we're not a, we're not a TV review show, so, right. But what he does is he starts analyzing how the second pilot talks to the pilot in charge and creating an atmosphere where. The second pilot doesn't feel like they can speak up. So then he looked at this one second pilot who was really good at putting the pilot at ease and then put her in a situation. So he created this recreation of a Canadian idol. 'cause he was a judge on Canadian Idol. So he set up a fake show, like a fake contest, singing contest. People come in to sing. And then there the judges were these second pilots. Oh, interest. And their job was to tell them what they, you know, are you good enough to be, you know, make it through to the next round or not. Then, the people auditioning had to give a review, like a one out of 10 on the way out. So dropping it in the, like on the way out, they would say, can you rate the person who just reviewed you. And so this woman was giving people really bad news, like you're not gonna get passed on at the next round. But they were all giving her like nines and tens. Oh wow. So then he tried to, he's like, let me try to really like be super affirming, encouraging. He told this young girl like beautiful things, like the things he said to her. I was like, that was amazing how he talked to her and. Gave her this great thing and she was like, I mean, it was bad news. She wasn't getting onto the next round. She was like, okay. And then she went out and raided him and. Like he still, she still didn't give him a good review. Like he was still, he is like, I'm trying but I can't get the good review. And I was like, that is what my job is every single day. Can I get the good review? Can I tell you something that is hard to hear in a way that makes you feel good about it? And yeah, it was really eye-opening. And then I went into work the next day really like thinking about this and I was like, okay. Like I just, I really have to focus on making sure. That they feel good about what I'm telling them. Then I got and it worked. I mean they were both like, I feel so helpful. And then I did get a glowing review from one of the people that I saw that day, like right away, like later.

Leah: Oh wow. You're like, wait a second, there's something to this.

Annie: Then I got kind of depressed about it. 'cause I'm like, is that really all I'm doing is making people feel good? Like do all the clinical skills that I have even matter like. You know, just like your point, it's like, I work so hard to get these clinical skills, but then if I can't make people feel good about them, what does it matter?

Leah: That was my, my spiral. Well, I feel like our job is such a unique mesh of that, you know, it's like if we want to be seen as really good providers, not just clinically good providers, I think you have to seek out the meshing of those two things. I think you could still, you know, you hear these any kind of healthcare provider like, oh, they had terrible bedside manner, but what they told me fixed everything. So people will tolerate the terrible bedside manner because they're like, well, they fixed everything. But I think with our vulnerable population, it's like that bedside manner, I guess you could say is like the make or break it sometimes because if we, they leave our care feeling. Really defeated or something, they might not even keep pursuing their original goals because their emotional state is so delicate at that time. Like any kind of knocks to that could change the trajectory of them versus maybe tolerating a cardiothoracic surgeon because you know they can put your heart valves back together. You're like, okay, I'll tolerate you. But I feel like with our situation. So much of it is this really heavy emotional toll these families are going through that requires so much of that bedside manner. I feel like we really have to treat our job like at least half and half. Like half of it is how you show up. How you care for them. And then the other half is our clinical competencies and being able to put the pieces together so that it does come together easy for them because we do understand what's going on. And I think that also gives us, when we do have the really good clinical skills, like it gives us the mental space. Like we're not thinking so hard about, oh my gosh, what could this be? What's happening? We're like, no, I'm confident about, I know. What is happening so I can clear up my head space to be really present with you and really trying to help guide you through this. So I do think there's so much value in the clinical competency, but I think it's also just like a, this very genuine human to human interaction awareness, you know, like that sometimes we just get wrote into our job and you're just like going through the motions and it's like, no, you gotta like check yourself and be like, okay. I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna be like all in, be with this other human who's going through this hard time and I feel like I have to like take a deep breath when I start and like try to get to know the person. Like that kind of building that rapport I feel like helps me so much. I always try to spend a few minutes trying to get to know them just a little bit.

Annie: Yeah. And that rapport, I think sometimes it feels like if, if I have a very busy day in the office, I'm like, Ugh, I have to, like we have so much to do and then worrying that, am I gonna like spend too much time on the this and we're not gonna have time for something else? And it is the piece too that. I know that if I skate through that, then I might lose them. And it is the part that I find sometimes just the hardest to remember to do and to take the time for. Maybe that's just my personality. I just wanna get right to it. But you know, they might be the fourth client and family that I've seen that day, but I also might be the first lactation consultant they've ever met in their whole life. And so, you know, I do have to make that extra effort. That's where the coffee, the coffee does help me make that extra. I'm like, definitely friendlier. I'm not like, that's funny. I'm not a, I'm not a naturally warm person in the way that some people are where you just feel immediately at ease around them, but I feel like sometimes a little like stiff and awkward and like

Leah: I get that too. I feel like I have to be. Intentional about it. You know, I feel like I have been, you know, just coming across different things like body language. So I try to, this is a funny one, but to appear more warm to people. Like when I introduce myself, I'll be like, my name's Leah, and I'll put my hand on my heart because putting your hand on your heart's like very, like genuine and opening and it's like one little like way that I start my consults that like reminds me of like genuine warm here for them. It feels good to me. I just feel like I get a little like oxytocin release. Like my name's Leah, and I'm here to help you. Feels a lot better than like, hi, I'm Leah. So tell me what brings you in today. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like mm-hmm. It just rem it's like this physical touch on my body that just like, okay, check in Leah. Like, get your energy, right. Let's start this consult. And it's something that I've just like worked into, like my introduction of who I am that also is tied to this piece of like how I wanna bring the energy I wanna bring to the consult. So you could try it out sometime if you want. Just like a checkpoint. It was just like, it just always feels really warm. And I saw that probably some, some real, that was like warm body language, how to start a conversation or something like that. I dunno, it just struck me and I tried it one time and I guess because it brought up the thought of how to be warm and inviting in a conversation. It stuck. And so now I do it every time I start a visit, I just touch my heart and say, hi, I'm Leah. It's nice to meet you.

Annie: That's a good one. And that's like a, that's a good example of practicing something like, something that like the rehearsal is like, okay, I'm gonna like, I am gonna do this. But then doing it does something to you.

Leah: Yeah, it does.

Annie: So that's a really good one. I'm like, trying to think about like, when I meet people, I think I usually will say, you know, I'm Annie and introduce my intern. I like the whole like, come on in, you can put your, you know, put everything here. Like kind of helping them get comfortable. So my office is on the ground floor and there's an exterior door and there's like a little step down. So people often come with, bring their strollers in 'cause they're often walking to their appointment. And so I like to end the appointment by leaving and holding the door for them. And I'll say, I'll hold the door for them. I'll say, watch out, there's a little step down. If I've worn my mask during the visit, I'll take my mask off because we're outside and like smile at them and smile at their baby. You know, just try to have like a little like closure and not just like leave now.

Leah: Yeah. Okay. Bye. Get out. I always take a minute, like once they've buckled the baby all up in this seed, I always say goodbye to the baby and use their name and be like, you did so good today. You're such a sweet little one, you know? And snuggle on those parents for me. Aw, you're doing so good. You know, so I'll just try to have a goodbye to the baby too. And the parents always get really tickled about it, you know? 'cause they're just like, oh, somebody's talking to this little human we made, you know? Which I think that's. Sometimes a fun way to leave them on a good note. But the other thing that I remember is like leaning into the conversation. So I'll turn away from my computer, like maybe when they're telling me something, you know, like something deep or like maybe something about their experience. I'll try to like lean in and like really kind of give that energy of like, I really wanna know what happened. I really wanna hear what you're going through, or. Versus like, oh, let me keep typing about this hard thing that you went through, you know? Mm-hmm. I'll try to think about that piece of body language and kind of give that like lean in feel to it, that you get like, you know, when somebody's telling you something hard, it feels nice that they're like really listening to it. I try to think about that too. Obviously, body language is on my mind as of late, but. I feel like body language changes my energy just naturally. So if I can at least just think of the body language, then all the actual words or the actual kind of intention I wanna bring to what I am gonna say naturally changes because our brains read what our bodies are doing, I guess is like the philosophy around that.

Annie: Yeah, I mean there that's definitely real and it's. It's something that, you know, I talk to my clients, just like take a deep breath, drop your shoulders. Like when you feel comfortable, you'll be comfortable. It helps you feel less stressed about it. And the same thing for me, if I'm talking to somebody and I feel like I'm starting to hold some tension in my body, just like taking a breath, just helping myself, my body, relax helps, helps me be more present. I definitely have been helped by. Either like when, when my intern is there and I know my intern is taking notes or if I'm using Chartings AI to listen and listen, doesn't listen, but I dunno what it does. Transcribe. Yeah, transcribe. And to take those notes for me. I don't look at my computer at all during the visit unless I need to like, let me just check that again, but like what was the weight again? I mostly just am facing them and that's also really, I feel helpful. One thing I need to get better about is remembering to use everybody's name, but I have, I just like have a hard time remembering, and then I, yes, and I also might be like, oh, I know this baby's name. And then I'll say the baby's name and then I'll get into a little anxiety loop like, was that the right name? Was that the right name? And then I get anxious. I'm like, it's just better. Just don't, no names, just don't use names because you can't get it wrong if you're not using the name, you can't at all.

Leah: Or if it's a really hard name to pronounce, I'm like, oh, please don't let me tear this name up. I usually just ask, like, I'll be like, this is. Like, tell me how you like to have this name pronounced, or something like that. So that it's like, oh, it could be pronounced many different ways. I wanna hear how you wanna pronounce it so it doesn't sound like I literally have no idea. The other thing that I find helpful is to, you know, like balancing the empathy with like not over promising or over like, oh, we're going to like fix it. We'll fix everything. I hear you. We'll fix it all. And like, but saying like, this is a lot like you guys have a lot of layers of what's going on right now and here's what I think we could tackle today and here's what we might need to try to hold out for our next visit. Or just kind of giving some boundaries around it because I do feel like sometimes it's like we want to kind of reassure them like, I hear you and like. We can fix all of this. You know, like even if we don't feel like we can, we just feel so bad and want to say something encouraging. But I think it also helps me narrow down my focus. Like they've got a lot of stuff going on and it feels very overwhelming. I can start getting like, how will we ever get through all of this? Which would shift my energy and make me feel anxious, you know, just thinking. And that gets me scattered no matter what. So sometimes I like to try to see if I can hone in on like, this is what I think we could manage doing today and this is the things that need to be addressed, but we'll need to find another time to address those help set up like an empathetic but boundaried situation where it's, especially with those really complex ones, you know, that just feel way, way, way too complex.

Annie: And I try to, on that same note, find something like, if I can make them a promise, I will. And sometimes it might be like, I promise you when you leave today, you are no longer going to be triple feeding eight times a day. Like doing all the things eight times a day or else like. It's just something I promise you we're gonna work on a plan together that is gonna feel more doable than what you're doing right now.

Leah: I feel like I always, I feel like I can make that promise. I like the plan, promise because like so many times parents will come in, I'm like, they're like, I'm doing this, but I'm also doing this and I don't even know if I should be doing that. And then I'm doing this and I'm doing that. And like, I love to be like, I want you to be reassured, like. Before you leave today, we will come up together with a plan that you feel like is manageable and is working towards the goals that you have, you know? Like not some goal out there on TikTok, but like the goal that you genuinely have, like, we're going to figure that out and then we'll have a plan and, and I always reassure 'em. I'm like, that'll help you feel so much more settled when you know that the steps you're taking are. Towards a goal that's right for you and the steps are gonna move you in that direction.

Annie: Definitely. It's such a good balance of like making sure that they feel like you have a better, you have a picture in your mind that matches what they want and that you know, things that they don't, but also that you're not, you're not like. Gonna make them be like, yes I can, you know, bring in your milk supply by tomorrow or, right. You know, I've got a easy five step process that will. Living the breastfeeding lifestyle of your dreams. You know, just follow my proven method. I'm like all of those like that. The Frisbee method, the Frisbee method, all of those things we see on social media of like people making promises where you're like, you can't make that promise. Like I can't that promise. I don't have any, I don't have a proven method that always does the same thing, but I do have an ability to listen and to. Hear what somebody wants and help, you know, really respect what they want and have their goals be the most important thing. And hopefully, you know, on my, on my good days, which hopefully most of my days are good days, I'm able to communicate difficult clinical. Things in a way that is easy for them to understand and that they feel applies to their situation and help them feel like they are the ones that are in charge. I guess like, it's like,

Leah: Yeah. And I think, you know, helping them. Understand that each case is so individualized as something that I really try to focus on too, so they don't feel like, well, my friend had this experience. And you know, the person on social media had this experience all really emphasized that like this little package of person, this little package of DNA right here has literally never existed on this planet before. And then you and that little package of DNA person is unique, like y'all are two little puzzle pieces that have never come together. Even if you've had five other kids. This little puzzle pieces coming together of you and baby are unique, and that in and of itself is going to make this a completely individualized journey. And just helping them see that and like no matter what. Everybody else is doing like this journey is individualized. And that's why our work is so both difficult and necessary is because we really have to take the time to kind of look at everything the parent's bringing to the table, everything the baby's bringing to the table, and then everything that's desired out of the situation and try to cultivate plans towards that. But I try to be really open with my families about how. This might not look like your last journey feeding a baby, or it might not look like your friend's journey. And sometimes I think that brings them a lot of peace. You know, just to think about it in that way, that like, oh yeah, this little human has never existed before. Wait a second. That means nobody really knows about this little person and they have to be figured out, you know? And I think that sometimes can be a little breath of fresh air of like, okay. They don't have to perform like all the babies in the books that they read or whatever. That was like some figuring out, and that's normal and necessary, and part of, you know, our job together is to figure that out.

Annie: Totally. That's so good. I love that. I'm gonna add that one into my repertoire. Just helping them feel like what they're having when they come into a session with us is a. Something individual, something personal and that we care And 'cause we do care. And I mean obviously that ends up being the hardest part of our job. That we do care so much. But I know, but when we can convey that, I mean, you know like when you get that review from a client and you know, you hear them saying what it meant to them to work with you, it really is an honor. And it really is like not something. That I take lightly that, that people, that I can help people feel good about working for me, working with me, that's, or me working for them. It's like all I really want is for you to feel good in your parenting journey and whatever happens, I want you and your baby to enjoy getting to know each other.

Leah: Yeah. Yeah. And just helping them see their little one as like another fellow human who's trying to figure out life, you know, just as much as they are.I'll do a lot of like, you know, that reminder of the humanness of the baby. Like, you know, like, you know how many times you go eat lunch and then an hour later you're like, I could really eat more. I'm like, I do that all the time. You know? Or how many times do you get all snuggled down in bed and then you go. I'm so thirsty and you gotta get up and get a quick drink. I'm like, just things like that to just help them, you know, see their little one as the little human that needs extra hug or another sip of water basically at the breast. You know, it's like, yeah, I think it's definitely another way that we can tap into their, you know, how they're feeling about the situation.

Annie: Well, I feel inspired for my day of consults tomorrow. And also just have a couple of more things that I can use when I'm training my, my new, new people that I'm bringing on right now, just to kind of help them and other ways that we can look at what we do. So this was a great conversation and I always like being able to talk through how weird our job is, and especially how weird it is when I'm watching an HBO show about plane crashes and I'm like, I just saw my job represented in this show.

Leah: That is hilarious. And now I'm gonna have to go watch that show. It sounds like a really good one.

Annie: It is. It's weird. It's weird. It's very weird. But I did learn a lot from it or I did get some good insight about myself.

Leah: Awesome. Well, it was good talking to you today, Annie.

Annie: It was great talking to you. And yeah, we'll see each other and hopefully others at our deeper dive coming up at the end of May with Lisa Morocco on Low Milk Supply. So I'm excited about that and always have questions on that topic.

Leah: Oh my gosh, always.

Annie: You can join with a subscription and get access to all of our lives and all of our recordings, or you can just come to one, whatever, whatever you do. We'd love to see you there live and everybody who registers to join live also gets the recording automatically. Hopefully we'll see you there and until next time. Thank you. It was great talking with you Leah.

Leah: Same to you. See you soon. Bye

Annie: bye.