85 | 5 Years of Lactation Business Coaching

Annie - Well. Hey there. Leah.

Leah - Hey, Annie. How are you?

Annie - I'm great. How are you?

Leah - I'm doing pretty good cruising into the winter and into the holiday month, so it's feeling pretty good. 2023 has been all right.

Annie - I think all right is a good word for it. It's a milestone year for me and in my life. And it's also a milestone year for us with our five years of podcasting together and coming up on three years of doing our deeper dives every month, we're closing out the year with a deeper dive into pricing featuring Maggie Patterson, who is a podcaster and a marketing expert. We are going to put a link to her website in the show notes so you can check her out. She co-hosts the Duped podcast with Dr. Michelle Mazer, which is all about shady goings on in online business, and it's a lot of fun. So Maggie is going to be talking with us about all the different things you have to consider when pricing your services, especially understanding that there's like an emotional side to pricing, not just for our clients. Like, does it feel good for them to pay what they're paying, but also for us? Does it feel good to work for what we're charging? And how do you find that sweet spot, and how do you get people to pay you without feeling like you're being like trying to talk them into something?

Leah - Yes. And we've talked about this before, I think because both you and I came into the world of breastfeeding, lactation support, all of these things in the volunteer role. And it was so hard in the beginning to ask for any money, you know, and certainly we've developed a better skill in that. But it is so important to consider, like the emotional aspects of it, but then also like trying to be really open to pricing and pricing changes over time, because I think that's the hardest thing for me sometimes is like, when should I change my prices? Because things like inflation and things are costing me more. So like when do I start turning around and charging that more to my client and stuff like that, like it's so hard to work through. And so I'm super excited to hear from her and hear the advice, because I have tried to do some searching online and it gets a little weird out there. Like people have a lot of different philosophies out there, and some of it is like, oh, that does not feel good to me, you know? So I can't wait to hear what she has to say about it. I'm super excited about that.

Annie - I am too, you know, it's just been interesting seeing how the conversation around pricing and insurance has developed over the years with lactation. You know, when you and I first started, it was like you did self-pay or you did Aetna, and that was pretty much it. And I've recently gotten a network with UnitedHealthCare. I am deep in conversations with a couple of other payers to get those direct contracts with them. Meanwhile, watching some other companies that are offering nationwide lactation care. And it just seems like a race to the bottom in terms of how little they can get away with paying the people who are providing care and how short visits and not doing much. And that just has been something that bothers me. And I feel like our pricing does have to address that. If somebody gets told their lactation visits are free and then I'm turning around saying, well, they're not. Yeah, how do we really, you know, help get in that headspace and address those. And it's not unique to our industry that's everywhere. You know that there's there's the the way that, you know, the difference between this kind of like automated kind of like Uber version of everything getting the getting it the quickest and the easiest and the cheapest, cheapest and and then what we are doing, which is we're experts and we're really good at what we do. And that does have a value approach attached to it. So Maggie talks about these kinds of issues on her own podcast a lot on her Instagram. You follow her and get a sense of who she is, and we're just excited to get a whole hour with her at the end of December to close out the year. And then we are going to open next year, 2024. Hello with crazy, we're going to do our Listener Questions episode. And it's not really questions like, what do you want me and Leah to tell you? But more like, we want to hear from you. You're all doing this private practice thing. With us also. And what do you want to say about it? Like maybe you do have a question for us, but maybe you also have something where you're like, I heard this on your podcast and I also have something to contribute to this conversation like comments are totally welcome and we would love for you to also shout out your business bestie or somebody that you think is doing an amazing job. Maybe it's a training that you took that you really were wowed by that changed your practice. Or maybe it's just that person where you're like their posts in groups just bring me so much reassurance, or I share this person's social media post with all my clients, like, yeah, let's do a little celebration of all of you that have been with us for this ride for four years, and shine that light back out on all of you like we will read them. We'll read them anonymously. We'll read names. We'll do whatever you want to do. But there's going to be a survey in the show notes. I'll send it out by email. Also, please fill it out. We would love to just just be able to go on and on and on celebrating all of you. And if you have questions, we're happy to answer them.

Leah - And we want to know what's coming up for you, because that really helps drive our idea creation for future episodes, for the different types of speakers, we want to bring in the different things we want to talk about on the deeper dives we want to take an issue or a situation that's coming up for you and your practice and and help build your confidence around it or knowledge around it or, you know, give you that support. So through these listener questions and comments, we can really understand what you guys need because that's what we're here for. We're here to build this community and be a resource and a really valuable resource. And we do that through connecting with you. And we appreciate all the people who come to deeper dives, because this is also where the questions there and that live interaction, like we always leave those like, okay, now we need to know. We know we need to either have that speaker back or let's talk about this thing that came up, and let's find somebody who can really hone in on that idea. So love any conversation and communication that we can continue to have. And we look forward to hearing all you guys put into these questions in the survey. We appreciate your time doing that. And it helps us continue to serve you here, which is our passion. And why have we been doing this for five years?

Annie - And why we don't want to stop? We have no intention of stopping. It's too much fun and we are going to close out our year and close out our five year anniversary celebration with a look back on moments from past episodes that Leah and I keep thinking of. And some of them are where we're like. Like, I can't believe that happened during that episode. Or we said.

Leah - That we really derailed there. Yeah.

Annie - And also some moments where we've heard from you that people will say to us when they see us and it just, I don't know, we're just having a little fun. If this was the 80s, this would be like the clip show where we're, like, pretending like we're solving a mystery. But we have to look back on all of our memories. And then at the end, you were like watching it as a kid, and you're like, wait a minute. They just did an entire episode of things I've already seen. I'm going to kind of be like that, but I hope you have as much fun with it as we have had putting it together. We can't wait to see you at the deeper dive at the end of the month.

Leah - Look forward to seeing you there and I hope you guys enjoy the episode. If you're a private practice owner, you wear this whole other 25 hats. On top of that, just being a limitation consultant, which is hard enough like that in itself, is really challenging.

Annie - I was thinking through like characters on The Office and I'm like, okay, I think I have a job that corresponds to every single character on The Office, except for maybe Ryan the temp. But sometimes I feel like Ryan, the Ryan the temp. I just want to like, run away and party and not have to think about it.

Leah - Like, none of this is actually my responsibility. I'll just go into, like, pretend that I don't care about any of this mode for a little bit. Yeah, I could, I could relate to that.

Annie - I have to say that this first one is maybe one of the most controversial ones that we're going to bring up in the entire episode.

Leah - Uh, this is going to be a tough one. Okay? We're going to do it. Okay. Break it down. What do we got?

Annie - You've mentioned using clients bathrooms and taking off shoes at the visit, but what about that classic debate? Oh, no. Do you or will you bring a coffee into the visit with you?

Leah - Oh my gosh. No, this is too much.

Annie - Yeah. We need to shut this down right now. No.

Leah - I don't know. I don't think it can be done. It just can’t.

Annie - I mean, I don't know if I could take a position on this with, I know, just run up to one side or the other. Okay. Are you going to take a stand?

Leah - Where are you standing?

Annie - I'm going to take a stand. And the stand is that I'm a jerk. Oh, no. This is the stand. I'm going to take. I like to think of myself as this very considerate person. Like, I'm going to take my shoes off so I don't bring, like, dog poop into your house from the dirty streets of New York City. But I can't even tell you the number of times I have stopped for iced coffee at a coffee shop on the way, because my client's early in the morning and I'm tired, and I'm a coffee person. Brought it into the consult, and then when the consults over, I've left it there. Oh, no. Like for them to clean up. Oh, no. Now I'm evolved. I really was like, after, like, doing it more times than I would like to admit. I don't. I'm very mindful of it now. And I will say, like, I will say this while I've left my trash. That's what it is. I've left my trash behind for my clients because of my coffee obsession. I do also carry breath mints, and if I'm drinking coffee before I leave, I pop a breath mint because coffee breath is.

Leah - So what about you guys? I don't bring anything water or coffee into visits. Oh, I just never have. Probably because I'm the worst about leaving stuff behind. And I know 100% I would do that. And so I don't bring anything in with me for me. But on this note, I think we talked about it. One of the episodes, like, if a family member offers you a coffee or a drink of water, I have had. Speaking of coffee, a few clients who have the super fancy like cappuccino making espresso mega machine and they're super into coffee. And I have had some of the best coffee of my life in these, these family homes. So if someone, not the parents, offer me one of these fancy coffees, I will drink it there. But I have not brought in my own coffee for sure. And I'm really bad about. I know a lot of people would bring water. I've seen that, like on the message boards and stuff, like bringing water, a water bottle in your bag or something like that. Don't even do that. It probably would be super helpful and good for me, but I don't even do that.

Annie - I don't do that either. I break coffee, but not water.

Leah - But I think that's such a good question though.

Annie - What I think Future Annie wants is a day off. And so to give Future Annie a day off, I just work, work, work all the time. I'm like, oh, I don't have anything to do right now. Let me just catch up on stuff. Because at some point in the future, Annie's going to take a day off. But future Annie never does take a day off. Yeah, because there's is always something to do. There's like that. I forget there's some, like, name for it, but, like, work will always expand to fill the container that you give it. And I give work too much of a container like it's my identity. I also have like the dopamine rush from working, like, whatever.

Leah - And then we're watching those little tasks. Yeah.

Annie - And like just feeling productive. And we were watching my family and I've been rewatching 30 Rock as a family. And there's an episode in the first season where Jack Donaghy, the CEO person or whatever, had chairman of General Electric has a heart attack and Liz Lemon goes to visit him in the hospital. And he was like, he's like lemon. I saw so many things flashed before my eyes and I thought, I came to the end. I saw the light and I was like, the end is near. And he goes, and I realized something. I should have worked more.

Leah - Oh no, such a perfect punchline.

Annie - Like, oh my gosh, I feel like I got a little too much Jack Donaghy in me, where I'm like, there's always something I could do. And I think what future Andy wants is future Annie doesn't want to feel like future. Annie wants to exist. Yeah, and she might want to exist now. Like today. Not at some vague point in the future, I think. Basically, I have been preventing Future Annie from being birthed.

Leah - Yes. Let that baby out. Come on. Release and feel the opening. I'm not a doula. I'm probably not say all the right things right now, but yeah, I'm like, we can't even talk. That was so fun.

Annie - We live by more than one poop story. So, Leah, what's your stories? What's your best poop story?

Leah - Okay, so one was when I was holding the baby doing the oral exam. Of course, the baby was in just a diaper and literally the sound that came out of this child, it just cannot be natural or normal. It was so loud I jumped the mom. I mean, like we literally jumped. I was fearful and like held the baby close. Like, was that a gun? Like, what was that? That was so loud. And then just poop came pouring out the sides of this diaper. I was like, hands full because I had like, the whole that you're doing, like, you're kind of behind the baby's shoulders and neck. And then I have the butt in my hands full of poo and oh my gosh, but the sound, you should have seen us and we all, like, literally laugh for so long because we all jumped and this kid pooped. Like, I don't even know how it was physically possible for the amount of poop, but it was coming out both sides. So much poop. Lovely breastfed yellow poop all over me, all over my hands. It was everywhere.

Annie - That breastfed baby poop is a very on trend color. This is what I'm noticing.

Leah - So it's like burnt yellow that's on every floral pattern. It's hilarious. It's hilarious. And so from that I learned and now 100% of the time I put a blanket on my lap and then put the baby on my lap. I never, ever, ever have a baby bootie sitting on my lap. Not happening. Nope. Learn my lesson. Learned it? How about you? Yeah, I mean about it.

Annie - I've learned the same lesson. So my poop story. My best one was when I was with twins and they were about three and a half months old. At this point, I think it was my seventh visit with this family, so we all knew each other pretty well. I had one twin on my lap and she had the mom had the other twin on the other lap and they were like three and a half months old. So they were being like super cute. And I'm sitting there looking at the other twin and she just starts laughing and like, and I was like, oh, that's so cute. When twins laugh at their twin. That's so cute. And all of a sudden I feel something on my leg. And I looked down and my entire lap is covered with poop from her sister. And I was like, she totally watch her sister poop on me and thought it was hilarious.

Leah - That is classic. That's what the ones that you're like, why did we not get that on YouTube? That could be viral. You could be famous right now. I know it was. That is so cute and gross.

Annie - And this baby had clothes on. So it was one of those didn't get through. I mean, a three month old breastfed baby can really produce a lot of poop. Yeah.

Leah - So much poop. Yeah.

Annie - I always do keep seltzer cans of seltzer in my car, because I never remember to fill my water bottle before I go, but as long as I've got the seltzer and then okay, here is a super advanced next level hydration lifehack, which is I crack open a can of seltzer when I get in the car and I drink a little, and then I drink that same kind of seltzer until it's gone, which could be like 2 or 3 days, because what I'll do is like, I'll have like, I'll have a fresh seltzer that then also comes out to the car with me. And then sometimes I have two seltzers. But you know what? It's those days. I'm like, I forgot my seltzer. I'm like, oh, passed Anny left you some lukewarm flat seltzer. Don't you just love her? She's the best. It's water. I mean, it's nothing wrong with some lukewarm flat seltzer. And I've been drunk. I've even been so thirsty that I've drunk hot seltzer because hot? Because it was in my car. But then what I'll do. Here's it. I'm going to give you guys this one for free. If you hold the can of hot seltzer because it's hot, because it was in your car up to the vent of the air conditioner while you're driving, it cools off pretty quick enough so you can drink it.

Leah - I could just see you driving down the road, and I have driven with Anny before honking your horn and holding your can. And like everybody, get out of my way. I've got to get my seltzer. Cool. And I've got to get to my client. That is hilarious and genius all at the same time. I love it so much. That is awesome.

Annie - The fact that we have a job that's weird, like we did.

Leah - It's like, so unusual to most every other job out there. I just mean.

Annie - Like, you go to the dentist and you have a new hygienist and they're making small talk. What do you do for a living? I'm a lactation consultant. Another like in there with the instruments in your mouth telling you how, like why breastfeeding didn't work out for them. And you're like, I just literally came here to get my teeth cleaned. Didn't come here to help you process your breastfeeding grief.

Leah - Like lactation therapy or something. It's like you become the vessel for everyone's, you know, poor lactation outcomes or their great lactation outcomes. Either way, it's like you just become the vessel that gets to take all that in. Everywhere you go, I feel like everywhere, gosh, I'll be at a Christmas party that like for my husband's work. And there what do you do? And lactation consultant. Oh, man, I know, I tried to breastfeed, but this happened and this happened. And on day one, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And then on day two and I'm like, oh my gosh, your kids, for how long is this going to take? You know.

Annie - Like we're okay and suddenly we're taking a history or like, or you'll get this story where somebody will be like, oh yeah, I breastfed my, my child for, for 18 months and you're in your mind, you're like, oh yay, a happy story. And then they're like, and it was awful. Oh, and like I was like, why did you do that to me? Like for a second I thought it was going to be really nice talking to you. And now like, okay, I'm sorry. That mean am sorry. Like I don't want somebody to have something for 18 months that they found awful. But like.

Leah - Like we get this like layer upon layer on us, you know, and it just kind of builds and builds and builds and it's like we need to stick a hole in the bottom of that bucket so it can start draining out the other side. And I think that's where our coping mechanisms can really come in to help us manage that. So it's like our buckets all full of all this mud, you know. And then we're going to poke a hole in the bottom of it.

Annie - My water bottle that I got from this ride share driver opened in my bag and did all of my paper handouts that I have to now replace, and that's why my kids were tossing my demo boob around, because I took everything out of my console bag and they're like, what's that? This is our new favorite thing we've ever had. They're like, it's a boob throw the boot.

Leah - Well, you know what? My kid thought it was an onion. It was a crocheted boob. And I had it sitting on my counter. But we have a bunch of like, well, this was a couple of years ago. We have had a bunch of, like, pretend food, you know, and some of it was crocheted and some of it was. And so they're like, why do you have an onion on your desk, mom? And I was like, it's not an onion. And I don't know why you think it's an onion, but it's a boob. Okay, so teaching strategies. I always put my class to sleep. I need ideas, help and ways to be engaging to my classes. I've taught classes to parents, nannies, businesses, and health care providers on many different subjects. The information is interesting because breastfeeding is incredible, but I need better teaching skills. Help.

Annie - I don't know if I'm the best person to help you with this question, because in another lifetime I taught college students. And let me tell you, there is nobody that can sleep during a class like a college student.

Leah - Oh for sure.

Annie - So I don't know.

Leah - You've seen plenty of eyes just roll back in their heads and pass out, I'm sure.

Annie - Completely. I mean, definitely when you're a teacher, you're also have to be part entertainer and put on a bit of a song and dance show.

Leah - Oh my gosh, that is so much the truth. So much the truth.

Annie - I have definitely bought into this idea that rest is something that I have to earn, not something that is a basic right or like need human, you know, as.

Leah - Essential human need.

Annie - You know, breathing, eating and rest. And I'm kind of like, I can do without that. And it's this idea, though, that there is a place in the future where I will be able to rest, but it's after I get all of this stuff done.

Leah - And exactly I feel that same way. I'm like, oh, it's coming, but I can just keep pushing because, like, someday I'll retire and then I'll start resting.

Annie - Right? It's the whole, like you'll sleep when you're dead.

Leah - Exactly. Which is terrible because gosh, that like, in the end, makes you less effective, less productive than you really imagine yourself being because, like, spinning your wheels 24 hours a day actually doesn't make you a better person.

Annie - It really doesn't mean, and we see this in the work we do with clients. Like I'll tell clients who are needing to pump, you know, eight times a day to bring up their milk supply. And I'll tell them, if you need to skip a pump because it'll help you, you'll actually do the next one, because if you're sitting here feeling like, if I pump right now, I'm never going to pump again, it's better to skip that pump and take that rest break so you can get back into it. And I'm like, why can't I listen to this for myself? If you feel like you might want therapy, just get therapy. Like it's like there's no harm in getting it. And even having the feeling that it might be helpful to you is probably a sign that it will be. But we also know that there are things that we're struggling with that aren't at the level that require a therapist actual therapy, but require different kinds of support. So, Leah, why is this work so hard?

Leah - I think we have so many layers of challenges in the work that we do. We have the clinical layer. You know, there's a lot of pressure on us to have such a vast array of clinical knowledge. You know, we're just I feel like that's a huge burden on us. And everything's always changing. Like I feel like, oh my gosh, I haven't read that article. I haven't read that study. Oh, I got to get caught up on who's doing what, when, where and the, you know, the new classes I need to take. I just think there's this really huge burden to stay ahead of the game, to be on top of the game, to be a sought after DLC. You got to stay up with the times, you know. So there's that layer. There's the layer of the really tough, hard things that we're doing in consults. We're working with people that are very vulnerable. They might have been through traumatic experiences that could be triggering to us, or it could just be really heavy and that's weighing us down. We're also giving, giving, giving the whole consult. You know, I feel like sometimes I have to be so on, you know, I mean, just giving my energy, giving my energy.

Annie - You have an unlimited well of energy to give. I mean, you and I both talked about those days when you just come home and your family's like, how is work, honey? And you're like, I just need to crawl into bed for a thousand years and not think about what we all just went through at that house.

Leah - We need you to keep doing the amazing work that you're doing. And if we don't stop and place these boundaries and learn how to release the stress, then we get burnt out and we don't do our great work anymore. So you guys keep taking care of yourselves and keep placing those boundaries and finding where you need that extra help.