104 | After Show: Deeper Dive into Type A Families

Annie
Well, hey there, Leah.

Leah
Hey there, Annie. How are you?

Annie
Well, I am great, and feeling a little turned inside out, because you know we just did this deeper dive into working with Type A parents, and it ended up being a lot about things that we have to do for ourselves to like regulate our own nervous systems and working with these families. So I'm like, my brain is buzzing, but I was also told don't let it just buzz around in your brain, help it like relax, assimilate, don't try to take action on it right away, just like I don't have to run out and change everything about how I'm doing just because of one presentation, I could just like let it marinate.

Leah
It was such a great conversation, and it was so insightful, I thought so many things that I were just like, whoa, I didn't realize, like, all these patterns that we see, and, like, I don't know, it was so good, and I really loved her kind of showing us through examples of like how she slows things down, how she keeps things regulated, and things like that. Like, even in her presentation, she was doing a lot of that, and I love modeling, because so often I feel like I get the concept, but she did such a lovely job with modeling, and I thought that was so helpful through the whole presentation, but yeah, totally good reminders about like not spinning off into like here's my 25 step checklist on things I'm going to do different now.

Annie
Totally, yeah, I mean, I think like I guess I used to think that being anxious, overwhelmed was like just pretty specific to like New Yorkers or East Coasters, and like in my mind, like everybody in the rest of the country is like relaxed about things and not like amped up all the time, but I also feel like looking at the changes in technology and things like social media and AI is that it's kind of turned all of us into these anxious, over-informed people, and just this idea that we are bombarded with so much information without any context to put it in, like that. I feel like is now like the anxious, overwhelmed client is over-informed client is like the norm, like they've all read all the studies, like they've all read the books, they're all like, okay, what is the, you know, if you're gonna tell me to do something, what is the, you know, pros and cons, or what are the, you know, what's the chance that it's gonna help.

Leah
Yeah, where is the evidence?

Annie
What are my chances, what's what percentage, I had somebody text us this morning, asking if we help with bottle refusal, which we do, and but then she said, or he said, How many sessions does it usually take, and what is your success rate? And I'm just saying, you are giving me existential crisis right now, because now I'm like, What is my definition of success? Like, I don't know, actually, am I, am I actually just a failure? Has anyone ever succeeded? I don't know.

Leah
That is so much pressure, and then, like, if for some reason their case doesn't have that percentage, I'm like, this feels like way too much pressure.

Annie
Too much pressure, it's, it's too much, and but also it's like, well, how do you even, how do you quantify like the kind of care that you provide without, like, you can't give outcome-based, like, I can't, I don't know what your outcome is going to be, I don't even know if what I'm going to tell you to do is going to work, because I don't know if you're going to do it, and, and even with, like, training people, you know, we both have people working interns and people working for us, and newer lactation consultants, and them saying, 'Just what do I do when this happens? And I'm always just like, 'I don't know.

Leah
Yeah, there's so many variables. I mean, it's all.. I think this is like one of the hardest parts of our job is like, and it's different from literally, I think almost every single healthcare role job out there is like, there are just so, so, so, so many variables that I don't think there's ever a straight, I feel like there's hardly ever a straight answer, other than like feed your baby, but like other, like there's not a straight answer for anything, I would have to ask 10 additional questions before I could ever, or more, probably 50. So, like, I totally get that when you have, like, an intern's like, "Okay, if this happens, like, what am I gonna do? And I'm like, "Well, I don't know, because you're gonna need to collect all this other information, you're gonna need to use your intuition, you know, like, oh, it makes our job so challenging, and I think we're all in this state of, like, overly charged, you know, because we're also constantly, you know, take this new course. Have you gotten the 25 extra certifications? Do you have the. Do you have that, and like, we're, we're in the midst of it, just under a different topic. It's not new baby parenting, but it is like being the best LC on, you know, that you can possibly be, and have all the information, and all the answers, and being really confident, and really good, and warm, and friendly, like all the things, like, so much.

Annie
I know there's such, like, ideal version of what we're supposed to be like. It's so easy to see what that ideal version of myself is supposed to be like at every moment with these clients, and you know, I never want to let anybody down, and I never want to be caught making a mistake. That's my, you know, own issues there, so I really am like always working so hard to be what that client needs me to be, and and then beating myself up when I guess wrong about what they need me to be.

Leah
Yes, she talked a lot about self compassion, and I know we've talked about self compassion before, and all the like context of burnout, but you know it's just like we're just another human, a messy human in the middle of life, and doing life, coming alongside this person, and you know they're looking to us, so we feel like we can't have any grace, we can't do anything even remotely wrong or not like the perfect thing for this person. It's so much pressure, and I don't know. I love that she reminded us to like do our best and have self compassion, because it's a hard job, and nobody's getting this right 100% of the time, nobody's out there like perfect LC it that I've heard of yet.

Annie
No, nobody is.

Leah
And it's never gonna happen.

Annie
I think, like, it's so easy to let the anxiety, the client's anxiety, run away with the consult, where you're like, I am trying to get a word in edgewise, but I don't want to seem mean, but I need to interrupt you, and like the kind of etiquette about that, and I feel like that's something that has gotten easier for me the older I've gotten. I'm like, you know, you came here to see me, like, and especially doing off, it's easier in the office than when you're in somebody's home to just be like, okay, wait, I need you to slow down for a second, and just also knowing that, like, the older I get, the less they're looking at me as a peer, and more, it's like you could just step into that, like, you know, older advisor role, can be the crone instead of the mother, and just have a little confidence of the way you show up for people is just like they are going to receive that emotional, you know, what you're putting that energy you're putting out.

Leah
Yeah, yeah, and I feel like this deeper dive really gave us a lot of insights on how to kind of recognize what is coming up for us when we're interacting with people, and like some really practical steps on like how can we maybe try to start to shift with compassion those patterns a little bit for our own good too, because they tend to come with a lot of like emotional debris.

Annie
So you know one of the things that's also helpful is having a like a toolbox of things that you can do when you are feeling amped up and anxious, and I know you're so good at collecting the mindfulness strategies, so like, what are a couple of things that you do, like, in the middle of a client when somebody is like really consult when somebody's like really losing it, and yeah, just barraging you.

Leah
Yeah, well, I definitely start with myself, because I usually first sense it in just this internal feeling that all kind of feel like, you know, just something amping up in me. I'm feeling starting to feel like I'm getting pulled into the tornado of what they're experiencing, you know, and I can sense that. And a practice that I've done for a long time is just in that moment, as soon as I catch it, obviously I'll be breathing already. I just try to breathe out longer, like just completely empty my lungs, and it's not anything that anybody else would know that I was doing, and it doesn't really take a lot of mental, so I can continue to be present while I'm doing it, but it seems to shift my body out, or like gets me a little bit further back from the whirlwind, where I can start to think about, okay, how I'm going to shift this conversation gently. How am I going to help them slow down, so we can gather some more information, and then I think maybe another thing that I do is just kind of. Reflecting back, like, wow, it sounds like you guys are dealing with a lot right now, and I really want to make sure I understand what's going on, so that I can start kind of getting some more information, because oftentimes it's just like, you know, it is just like there's so many, there's not really like any actual information, it's just like a lot of like bits and pieces, so oftentimes I'll like express it at like I really want to understand exactly what's going on, so like I'm gonna start like asking, you know, kind of my intro into like let me get deeper into like some concrete information, so that I can be helpful to them, you know, because I feel like sometimes you can get just pulled into this top non-productive conversation, but it can be like, like, we're not getting anywhere, we're not going to move forward, we're not going to get the information needed, so that I can actually provide you with any guidance or additional, you know, things that we need to be working through, so those were the two things that I have found helpful. But is there anything else that you're, you're utilizing or finding helpful?

Annie
I mean, that longer exhale is one that I learned to, I learned it at bar class, and they, they give, like, we do breath work at the end of bar class, and the instructors have their little spiel that they give, but she said about, like, the longer exhale is good for nervous system regulation, and then the reason is because if you have time to take a long exhale, it means that you are safe, and so your body can then tell your mind that you're safe, and that really made sense to me, so I do like when I do the long exhale, and I think you're safe right now when I do that, and that really helps, and the other thing that helps me, my office is like one room, and it has windows, but they're covered with curtains, and they're not windows to the outside, they're just windows to the outer area, is to stand up like when a consult is over. I walk the family out, and I open the exterior door for them, and I stand outside, and even just that rain or shine, freezing or not, I will go and open the door for them, because just that act of taking my body outside, like it helps wrap things up for me. It helps put a little conclusion on it, it feels friendly. If I've been wearing a mask during the visit, once I get outside, I'll take the mask down, so I can smile at them, and that is like a good ritual for me of closing out our time together.

Leah
Yeah, I really like that. Yeah, and just giving it like a pause in that moment, not just like, okay, here we go, but just taking a moment to kind of conclude it, because it can feel like, especially when you're office, it feels like if you're just one after the other, like the space is starting to hold more and more of the anxious energy, you know, you just like, oh, this space feels like full of, you know, struggle and anxiety today, and so I love that, like taking yourself out of that space, that's kind of feeling that energy. Yeah, for sure. I love that. I love that.

Annie
One time during a consult where the story that the family was telling me about what they'd been dealing with was so intense, and it was something having just like bad advice they were getting that was like ruined everything, I mean, and like of a level where I was like I just remember sitting there and I'm listening to her, and in my mind I sent my brain outside into the street to just go scream in the street, while I was like also still listening to her, I was like, you need to go, like, I need to, like, split off a little bit. Yeah, please just go scream to the sky, because this is a lot.

Leah
Oh, yes, it's interesting how we can see, you know, see ourselves kind of getting caught up, or just, I mean, these are sometimes very traumatic events that you're listening to, and you're, you know, picturing them, and kind of having empathy for how that would feel, and it can feel like such a heavy load. I love that you can kind of separate two parts of your mind and like send one off to take care of itself and release that deal frustration that you're feeling for the family and everything. I love that it's a good practice, like parts work, you know. Yes, whole idea, parts work. You just let one part of your brain do that. I love that.

Annie
I used to think that, that, that, like speaking of, like, the parts work, I was like, well, I always thought that was bad. I always thought I was supposed to be like my whole integrated self the entire time, but then parts work tells you it's like, no, no, you have these parts, they're helping you, yeah, let that part help you, yeah. I'll let that little dissociating elf help me, like, go run into the street, that's fine.

Leah
Yeah, yeah. I know, I love parts work, and I think it's helpful because you can kind of see or bring to the front like different parts of you that you like, oh, right now needs to be, you know, kind of humor. Playful part of me, and oh no, right now needs to be like really wise, grounded part of me, you know. I love the idea around that, and it kind of helps you recognize that you can kind of utilize different parts of yourself, you know, that that's like a normal part of human, because, like you said, it feels like, am I like, you know, have all these different parts of me, is that like, okay? I love that the answer is yes. Yeah, that's totally fine. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like, you know, these these families help us continue to like grow ourselves, like I think that's one thing that we talk about a lot of, like how we're evolving by this work that we're doing, and it's kind of like continually nudging us along to like look at our patterns and look at different things that come up for us as we're working with families and stuff. It's interesting how that gift kind of comes back, maybe gift or not, you're not ready to work on it, it might not feel like a gift, but I do love that aspect of this work, because it is such a, you're just getting constantly something different, and it is a chance to learn and grow from a very clinical perspective, but it's also a chance to learn and grow as just another fellow human, and figuring out how to interact with different people, and, and from different places in our life, because I was totally thinking about the fact that, like, a little bit of mourning, like I'm, I'm like definitely like not up here, I'm like not that, and that's sad, because I, I definitely don't feel like I relate to their experiences the way mine was very, very different, because the times were very different, you know. I didn't have all this technology influence, and it's just really interesting. It was, it was a bit of mourning. I was a little sad over these last, you know, it's probably been a while, but it was a little sad to realize that I'm old enough, I cannot even be considered a peer anymore, but it's also like, gives me a chance to relate to people now from a, from a different place, which is growth for me, you know, and challenging me in different ways now than than I did when I was like, heck yeah, my baby's doing the same thing, you know.

Annie
Definitely, I know, and it's like the width, time, and distance to, from like, you know, you and I both have our own personal breastfeeding experiences that we take to this work. The further away I get from that, the less triggering some of these situations are, and that's also like required me to have compassion for the mother that I was in those instances, and that I didn't know, and I was just, I was just doing my best, and figuring it out, and it's so funny, as like it's so easy to have compassion for other people, and it's so difficult to have it for yourself.

Leah
Definitely, yeah, it is, and it's a, it's like a muscle you have to really grow, you have to grow your self-compassion muscle, and like practice it a lot. That's definitely something I've been working on a lot lately, is just giving myself a lot more compassion for all kinds of areas of life, you know, but also our work, and, and that, and it is.. I totally feel the same way about how I look back on my experience, definitely relate to it differently, and learning to have more compassion for that version of me that you know has some really tough struggles in there, and like how I handled them, I think, man, if I just had known this or that, you know, it's like, oh, it's so hard.

Annie
So hard, and there are clients are carrying that too. They're like worried that they're gonna make a mistake, and it's gonna like ruin everything. And at least, thankfully, too, with time and perspective, you're like, okay, yes, I made mistakes, and no, they didn't ruin everything. And here we still are, just people, just people trying to live in this world and take care of each other.

Leah
Yeah, I know. I do really appreciate the distance, because I can be the person that can be like, I know this feels like this is going to be the pivotal parenting moment, but like it'll just be a different parenting challenge, just constantly changes, you're constantly learning, just giving them hopefully little perspective on that grace, and for themselves too, you know. And I think the more we can model that, or at least have it internally, I think it does show up for them too, you know what I mean? I think they do sense it, you know.

Annie
Also, if you're, you're modeling for them. I know this feels like it's gonna last forever, but things will change, and what you're learning now is what's gonna help you when things change is a different way of telling them to be present. Also, what I feel deeply, which is like, it really does go so fast. Hold that baby, you just hold that baby.

Leah
I know. Gosh, I want to say that, but I'm like, I know that's not all the helpful thing to say, but oh my gosh, it's so tempting, because I'm just like, what I would give to go back and like, oh, just have two more minutes, one more minute.

Annie
Yes, one more, one more. I know, I know, and they're gonna feel that way someday too.

Leah
Just not the place they are at.

Annie
Not the place, and I remember not being at that place either, so yeah.

Leah
Yeah, it's a good reminder that we're all kind of messy humans figuring this out, and that it's okay to not have it all figured out, and we're figuring it out as we go, all of us are.

Annie
well, this is another great conversation. I always love when we get to have such rich fodder for, you know, our conversation and things to think about. And so, if you're curious about the deeper dive, it's deeper dive into type A clients. You can subscribe to our deeper dive subscription, and you get live, get to join us live. You get access to our entire archive of recordings. Next month, we're going to be doing a deeper dive into community building with Rochelle Markham, and then in August we have a deeper dive into K taping with Allison Alexander. So, super excited for those two. We're always trying to do a little mix of the self care or work on ourselves, and you know, provide taking care of ourselves with providers, and like some clinical stuff, and also just some like big picture dreaming stuff, so you get a little bit of everything from our deeper dives.

Leah
Because we are a little bit of everything.

Annie
We are a little bit of everything, it is so true.

Leah
Well, it was great talking to you today, Annie. And I'll look forward to the next time.

Annie
Absolutely. Bye.